From Education to Legislation: Unlocking the Potential of Psychedelics in Society

From Education to Legislation: Unlocking the Potential of Psychedelics in Society

Welcome to the newest episode of Roots to Risk with hosts Eric and Isaac. Joining them is Matt Brockmeier, counsel for Emerge Law Group, a leading business law firm specializing in cannabis, psychedelics, and plant medicine.

In this episode, Matt shares his insights and experiences, taking a deep dive into the world of psychedelics. Together, they explore the cultural nuances and historical significance of these substances, with a focus on education and awareness. Their goal is to challenge misconceptions and shed light on the evolving landscape of psychedelic medicine.

Matt helps navigate the intricate frameworks proposed to facilitate research, ensure patient access, and establish regulated markets for psychedelics. With his expertise in legal matters, he provides a unique perspective on the legislative developments happening across the country.

The episode also highlights the ongoing efforts of organizations dedicated to dispelling myths and educating the public and policymakers about the true potential of psychedelics. Through research and cultural understanding, they stay up to date with the latest scientific breakthroughs, shaping the evolving perception of these substances. Matt’s invaluable knowledge and experiences illuminate the transformative power of psychedelics.

Join the conversation as they uncover the progress, barriers, and boundless possibilities of psychedelics. Tune in to this episode of Roots to Risk and embark on a journey with their panel of psychedelics experts.

Transcript:

00:01 Eric:

This is the Roots to Risk Podcast hosted by Eric Schneider, alongside Isaac Bach. Roots To Risk brings you insights, the latest stories, and long form discussions about the cannabis industry. You’ll hear interviews with industry leaders and their perspective on current and few future trends, how they’ve built success and what challenges they have faced. Our goal is to facilitate candid conversations and provide informative content for the cannabis community at large. Let’s go. What is going on, Isaac? How are we doing today?

00:32 Eric:

April already Q1 done.

00:35 Isaac:

I know. Well, and I get to do this from the, uh, confines of my own apartment. Nice and comfortable at home, which is, uh, a nice change of pace.

00:43 Eric:

I, I just think it’s because you didn’t want to come into the office and hang out with me. I think the WiFi’s fine. I’m gonna call, I’m gonna call BS on that, but it’s okay. You can

00:52 Isaac:

Talk to Barry

00:53 Eric:

Broadcast

00:54 Isaac:

About that. Yeah, I, I’m not the tech guy, so

00:59 Eric:

We got, we got more important things on deck. Um, you know, Matt Brockmeyer from, uh, merge Law Group doing a ton of work in the, the psychedelic space. I know a lot of the conversations that we’ve had to date have been around the cannabis space. Um, and by no means, you know, having him on, or are we saying that they’re one and the same, they’re very, very different. Um, and excited to learn more about, you know, what is currently in place from a regulatory perspective, and then what’s on the horizon.

01:33 Isaac:

Yeah. No, I think it’s, uh, it’ll be good to get the, uh, kind of first true psychedelic only focused one on the books here. Um, and you know, in speaking with Matt, you know, multiple times over the last three years, um, he’s done a lot of, you know, cool work with Emerge, um, in terms of the regs and both Oregon and Colorado. So he’ll have, he’ll have a wealth of knowledge for us.

01:53 Eric:

Yeah, no, I, I’m super excited to have him on here and, uh, provide some more context in the psychedelic space. And I think, you know, this is gonna be one of, uh, many to come on the route to wrist, so let’s bring him in. Hey, Matt, how are we doing today?

02:09 Matt Brockmeier:

Doing great, guys. Thanks for having me on.

02:12 Eric:

Absolutely. No, super excited to, to have you on here today and, uh, and learn more about what you’re doing in this space, and, and I think it would be great, Matt, if you could just provide everybody with some context on your background and, and what you’re working on these days and, and what you’re most excited about, maybe for the next 12 months.

02:28 Matt Brockmeier:

Okay. So, background first. Um, graduated from law school in 2009. Uh, I went to DePaul. I was the editor of the Healthcare Law Journal, and I was all set for a career in probably big Pharma. Um, but if you recall the, the, uh, the economy was, um, struggling a little bit in 2009. So, um, I ended up starting my career in litigation with a firm in Chicago. Uh, then I moved out to dc, did some policy work, um, with Think Tank, and had a couple other jobs out there.

03:00 Matt Brockmeier:

But, um, ended up in the cannabis space in Denver around 2017 or so. And then, uh, from there, transitioned into psychedelics more recently. So I’m, uh, excuse me, currently of counsel with Emerge Law Group. So full service, uh, business law firm focused. Um, my practice is focused on, um, cannabis and, and mostly psychedelics, um, after the passage of the Natural Medicine Health Act in Colorado, which, which we just passed in November, and I’m excited to talk about that.

03:32 Matt Brockmeier:

Um, and, um, and then what I’m excited about is, um, mainstreaming psychedelic medicine, um, either by virtue of state legalization efforts like we did in Oregon and Colorado, or at the federal level. Um, I also have, um, a, a ketamine practice, so work with, uh, providers in that space too. And really just working to help folks understand the potential of these medicines, um, so that we can, um, you know, use, use science instead of propaganda to direct our, our efforts, um, toward healing.

04:10 Isaac:

That’s awesome. I mean, I know from our conversations in the past, Matt, you know, you played, uh, personally a pretty big role in some of the, the legislation that’s been passed, and, uh, it’s done some work on that front. So would love to hear more about the stuff in Colorado particular since it just, uh, just got passed.

04:27 Matt Brockmeier:

Yeah, and I, I wouldn’t wanna overstate my contributions. This has been definitely, um, an effort, uh, all hands on deck. Um, I guess beginning in Oregon, um, with my, my firm emerge, uh, the folks over there, Dave Copak, Casey Homan, and Sean Clancy are part of the psychedelics practice with me. And they were instrumental in drafting the Oregon bill, which, as you know, created, um, a way for adults to legally access psilocybin via state regulated healing centers. Um, I access, they’re called facilitation centers in Oregon.

05:00 Matt Brockmeier:

Um, and then, um, was involved with the campaign in, uh, Colorado for the Natural Medicine Health Act, which, uh, passed by about 54% in November, and was signed into law in January by Governor Polis. Um, and, um, that’s what my main focus is now, is, um, helping to, well, working with the, uh, recently appointed advisory board in Colorado, um, who is, uh, in turn working with Dora, the Department of Regulatory Agencies, which oversees professional licensure in Colorado.

05:35 Matt Brockmeier:

Um, so really early days in, in Colorado, working with the state to, um, create and develop and implement, uh, a system for, uh, coloradoans to access psilocybin via, um, regulated licensed channels. Um, but what we did in Colorado was kind of like, I’m, I’m starting to call it the Oregon Plus model. So whereas Oregon created a, um, uh, a, a state regulated market for adults to access psilocybin therapy, Colorado did that.

06:07 Matt Brockmeier:

And we also decriminalized the personal use cultivation and possession of, um, a number of plant medicines. So psilocybin and Sloan from, um, mushrooms, uh, D M T, which is, can be found, is found in multiple plants, but primarily, um, the ones that, that are used in ayahuasca. Um, and then also, um, masculine containing C cacti, uh, not peyote, because that’s a sacrament used by Native Americans. And that’s kind of the consensus I think, uh, is evolving.

06:37 Matt Brockmeier:

But, um, most folks in the psychedelic space see the, um, wisdom in kind of leaving peyote alone. Um, and, uh, and then there’s also, um, iboga, which is, um, a route commonly found, um, a route most commonly found in, um, west Africa, in Gabo and Cameroon, um, that has a lot of potential for, um, opioid use and substance use disorder. So, um, just trying to right now, um, navigate this new law that we just passed. Um, the rulemaking hasn’t really even started.

07:10 Matt Brockmeier:

The, um, the Natural Medicine Advisory Board is scheduled to meet on April 13th, uh, for the first time after being sworn in by the state Senate. So, um, yeah, I’m, I’m, uh, I’m eager to see, um, where this goes. We’re at the very early days, um, kind of maybe comparable to where cannabis was maybe 10 years ago, I guess. Um, and man, time flies, cuz it seems like just yesterday we were like, what, what did Colorado just do? They just legalized weed.

07:41 Matt Brockmeier:

Like, can they do that <laugh>? And now obviously that’s, it’s a thriving industry with its replete with problems. Um, but, but a thriving industry across the country with, I’m gonna say 39 states with medical cannabis or recreational. Um, and so I think right now we’re at the, we’re at the point where we can start talking about, um, like which states are next instead of can the states do that? Yeah. Not with psychedelics.

08:08 Isaac:

No. And I think that’s really interesting and kind of a good segue to what my question was gonna be next, because you’ve worked on both sides, you know, cannabis previously, and now with a major focus on the psychedelic side. What do you think is kind of the, the major difference between the early days in the cannabis industry versus where the psychedelics industry is, and like, what major learning experiences from cannabis should the psychedelics community kinda take to heart to move the industry forward in a little bit of a different way?

08:38 Matt Brockmeier:

Two, two very good questions and different questions. So the first Id say, um, the main difference between, um, cannabis and, uh, psychedelics is that with cannabis, we had an adult use. Well, um, there was a, a medical model obviously with, with medical cannabis, but I think most people in the cannabis space are focused on the recreational side, which I mean, you can take issue with that characterization, but the distinction, I guess, uh, medical and rec, but there’s no direct to consumer. There’s no like adult use psychedelics.

09:10 Matt Brockmeier:

There’s no over the counter. Like if you’re 20, there’s no retail dispensaries for mushrooms or psychedelics. That’s this, this is kind of a new paradigm for, um, I guess mental health and wellness. Um, and I make that distinction because, um, for a lot of intractable conditions like major depressive disorder or opioid use disorder or anxiety or depression, um, these, these psychedelics are, are, um, you know, incredibly beneficial and therapeutic.

09:42 Matt Brockmeier:

But also, um, I don’t think the benefits stop there. Um, there are clinical trials after clinical trials with, um, data suggests that psychedelics are just good for you even if you’re not quote unquote sick. Um, I think we have a tendency in the west to look at, um, mental health as if it’s somehow distinct from physical health. And we look at these discreet diagnoses from the E S m, the diagnostic and statistical manual that physicians, uh, and clinicians use, um, as if they’re like, somehow separate.

10:17 Matt Brockmeier:

But we’re all, you know, cohesive human beings and our mental health and physical health are related, and these conditions aren’t like, you know, it’s not binary like do you have depression or do you not have depression? Um, it’s more that these tools can help us, um, unlock the, the potential that’s already within us to, um, to ex, you know, experience, um, states of, of, of joy and happiness. And, and, um, that’s the, the real promise, the real thing that gets me excited is the kind of combination of like the molecular biology and pathophysiology with like, kind of the spiritual aspect of, of our nature as human beings.

11:01 Matt Brockmeier:

So, um, I, I think I answered your

11:04 Isaac:

Question. Yeah, no, you did. I mean, I think it’s, um, I think it’s one of the things that the two industries on the surface level look somewhat similar, um, because you’re taking schedule and substances and pushing to make a legal or medical, um, industry out of it. So it’s definitely an interesting parallel, but I agree with you that there’s a, a major difference between the two.

11:26 Matt Brockmeier:

Yeah. And, and I think that difference highlights a missed opportunity with cannabis. Um, really, it obviously like the Controlled Substances Act is out of date, out of touch, not based in science, mostly, um, propaganda from the, the drug war. Like we all know that. Um, and I think that there’s a growing sense within the kind of establishment within the state and federal governments, um, that things need to change.

11:59 Matt Brockmeier:

And so like cannabis prompted that, right? Cannabis was the camel’s nose under the tent. It was, um, you know, oh, it’s just weed. So like maybe, maybe we can utilize that other drugs. Oh no, we couldn’t do that, but we just, we, and then peoples, I think the general public starts to realize that, okay, well, like, you know, this, like the devil, the devil’s lettuce, it’s not, yes, yes, there are risk cannabis use, um, but the, they’re, they’ve been overblown.

12:32 Matt Brockmeier:

And, and I think that there was a missed opportunity, um, in the sense that like, cannabis is a powerful plant. It’s, it’s got incredible therapeutic properties, but in the rush to kind of legalize and commercialize it, I think a lot of people kind of glossed over the, the real like health benefits of cannabis. And I think we’re, we’re learning a lesson from cannabis in psychedelic decriminalization, um, and, and focusing a little bit more on like the health and wellness and therapeutic benefits of it.

13:03 Matt Brockmeier:

So it’s like I, I wholeheartedly support intentional, um, recre recreational drug use, um, in the context of like psychedelics because, um, if you kind of zoom out, uh, other cultures have been using plant medicines, um, spiritually ceremonially for millennia, um, with, with, uh, positive, you know, mental health benefits. And, um, we we’re just like, in the West, we’re a little slow to realize that maybe it’s possible that big pharma has a profit motive that’s not exactly aligned with the interests of the patient or society.

13:44 Matt Brockmeier:

And so we’re trying to like, learn lessons from cannabis legalization and draw from the experiences of other cultures, uh, to, to try to get this right this time.

13:57 Eric:

Yeah, I think, I mean, I based off of like, where, where I remember when I was at like Microdose in, in Miami, uh, an event, it seems like it’s, it’s a much more like global movement. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like there are people from Australia, different parts of Europe, and, um, whereas I, you know, sometimes feel like cannabis is much more centralized and like North America and Central America mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, maybe I’m just like overstating that. But there, there were like just a, a variety of, to your point, you know, in indigenous cultures as well as like top level scientists.

14:35 Eric:

And what, what I kind of gathered is it seems like the path forward for a lot of, a lot of like different organizations. It’s interesting, like you have in, in Oregon right, the facilitator model and, um, like the actual, uh, blanking on the word, the locations where like the facilitations are like actually taken place and the individuals come on site and it is a much more like therapeutic experience.

15:13 Eric:

And then there’s also the other side where it’s like, it seems like it is like pharma a little bit, um, in, in the clinical trials and, you know, going through the, the FDA drug approval process.

15:26 Matt Brockmeier:

Yeah. And mean, you make a good point that there is kind of this bifurcation almost in psychedelics. Well, for, well, I was at, I was at Wonderland in Miami too, and I also knew it felt very global. Um, and I think that’s healthy, um, because, um, I mean this mental health crisis isn’t, isn’t limited to just the United States, like you mentioned Australia and Europe and South America.

15:56 Matt Brockmeier:

I’ve spent some time in Mexico recently. Um, the mental health crisis doesn’t like care about borders. Um, so it does feel like this is kind of a communal effort across the world as opposed to cannabis, which definitely felt like kind of, okay, the US has these drug laws and these states are kind of challenging the supremacy or the primacy of the Controlled Substances Act or the federal government’s right to control, you know, are are you plants?

16:28 Matt Brockmeier:

Um, and so, um, yeah. Sorry, I I forgot your second question.

16:35 Eric:

No, I was more just making a point, um, and, and just trying to like, it’s interesting because it seems like there’s, there’s two sides. There’s like the smaller operators and, um, that, you know, are providing access to medicine in like Oregon and you know, soon enough, Colorado. But then there’s also, you know, companies like larger non pharmaceuticals and maps and Sabin that seem to be going more the, you know, traditional clinical trial.

17:08 Matt Brockmeier:

Yeah. Um, interestingly, I was on a, um, a webinar this morning with, uh, delic Pharmaceuticals, which is a company that’s developing, um, kind of next generation chemi novel chemical entities that they intend to, as I understand it, take through the FDA approval process so that they can, you know, be used as prescription medications that are covered by, um, insurance and health plans. Um, and that’s definitely one route.

17:42 Matt Brockmeier:

Um, and I think the, there is some wisdom in acknowledging that, like dysfunctional or not, we do have a system like of federally approved pharmaceuticals that are available via prescriptions, primarily through employer sponsored health insurance. And like, that’s, that’s a fairly established way for folks to access, um, these, these medicines that benefit from them. But what you’re also seeing, um, and there are still some, I I hesitate to draw too many analogies to cannabis because, um, the, it’s we’re talking about one plant versus a category of chemicals we’re talking about.

18:22 Matt Brockmeier:

Um, there’s just different cultural, like baggage and taboos associated with cannabis versus like LSD or psilocybin. Um, but we’re also seeing, uh, states like Colorado and Oregon, but also like, I wanna say a dozen others that have proposed meaningful bills, not just research bills, but decrim patient access or Oh, really, um, across the country. So you’re seeing this kind of like two-pronged approach, I guess, where, um, for folks that think that the medicalization of these chemicals or medicines, uh, or substances is the way to go and, you know, to try to fit them into the existing framework.

19:03 Matt Brockmeier:

There are folks working really hard to do that, and I applaud their efforts. I also, I also think that, um, it’s worth keeping in mind that like, um, there are marginalized members of our, of our communities that don’t maybe have access to employer, you know, health insurance or have the resources to go out of pocket for ketamine therapy or in Oregon psilocybin and soon Colorado psilocybin therapy. And so, um, we need to consider, like the fact that the, the FDA approved pharmaceutical prescription insurance route is not the only way for people to access, um, medicines that can help them, you know, that can change their lives.

19:51 Isaac:

No, I think, um, you know, I know you mentioned there’s other states kind of working on some sort of legislation, you know, what, what state do you think’s next to come online? Obviously Colorado is in the very infancy of its own bill, but, you know, where do you think the next kind of move is gonna be across the country?

20:09 Matt Brockmeier:

Well, uh, that’s a good question. I mean, like, it seems like every day there’s, um, some new development with legislation that’s been introduced or been modified. For instance, like Washington State introduced a bill to, uh, that, that basically said, um, create a, uh, a bill was introduced in Washington that said that would’ve created, um, like a study group to, uh, look into the potential therapeutic benefits of psychedelics, um, and a lot of people.

20:41 Matt Brockmeier:

And that it would’ve also taken like three to five years until that study was like really done. And, and, and so it was like kind of slow progress, but then there was an amendment introduced to that bill to increase patient access. And so like, there’s, there’s the, there’s that, there’s also California, um, there was, I think it’s SB five 19 introduced by, um, I think it’s Scott Wiener. Um, correct me if I’m wrong, or, or you can double check <laugh>.

21:09 Matt Brockmeier:

Um, but, uh, that bill would, would, would effectively like copy the Colorado model, but also add L S D, um, which is like not technically a plant medicine, even though like it’s an ergotamine and it’s an ergot derivative. It’s kind of like derived from a mold. Um, uh, but, so there’s kind of, there’s an, there’s an emerging like east-west split, I guess, um, on the East Coast. They’re, um, introducing bills that are like more research focused.

21:40 Matt Brockmeier:

Um, Virginia had one, I don’t think it passed. Um, Texas had a bill that like basically allocated some, uh, funding for research into the potential benefits of therapeutics or psychedelic, uh, therapy for like veterans. Um, and so there’s states that are like recognizing the benefits of psychedelics and recognizing that like these drugs are probably at the very least, like in the wrong categories, um, as far as the laws go.

22:10 Matt Brockmeier:

And then there are other states like, um, Colorado and Oregon, and then California’s, um, that, that bill’s been introduced twice now. Um, and those, those are more like decriminalization bills that would establish, um, uh, a, a market for folks to access psilocybin or other, the psychedelics via licensed, um, therapists and facilitators and manufacturers. I think New Jersey also just introduced one. It is actually so hard to keep track that, uh, my team at Emerge is working, uh, with, uh, alpha, sorry, with psychedelic alpha, um, on, we, we maintain a tracker, um, for, uh, you know, bills and, and, and laws and regulations and rules around psychedelics.

22:56 Matt Brockmeier:

Um, so if, if folks are interested in, maybe we can stick that link in the, um, description or something.

23:02 Eric:

Totally. That’s a good thing, right? You got, you got too many to keep track of. Um,

23:07 Matt Brockmeier:

Definitely. And, and that’s, that’s just in the us Sorry to interrupt, but like, um, you know, our, our, our neighbor to the South Mexico where a lot of this, um, plant medicine like healing has its origins. Like, you know, the, um, the mushrooms, uh, from, from Oaxaca that were famously covered in like Life Magazine in the fifties with r Gordon Wasson going down there and, and trying, um, stilly with Maria Sabina, and then with Ayahuasca being from, uh, central and South America and, uh, peyote from, from Mexico also.

23:42 Matt Brockmeier:

And then like Canada is, um, kind of emerging as, uh, a leader in the space as, um, the, the, the can Canadian federal government is concerned. They’re, they’re moving a little faster than we are with changing, changing laws and rules around access and their iboga clinics in both of those countries. So like, it’s not, it’s not just in the US And, and actually what you’re seeing a lot of is, um, kind of like, like healing tourism, where folks are going, you know, you can’t access these medicines legally in most of the United States, but Costa Rica or Mexico or Canada or the Netherlands, or you name it, there are a lot of, uh, a handful of countries where, um, the drug laws are a little bit more modern than ours.

24:29 Matt Brockmeier:

Um, and that’s prompted discussions at the federal level and actually at the un uh, about, um, you know, what are, what are we really doing here? Um, as a, as a society, as a global community, um, these medicines have shown promise. The science is there anecdotally they’re safe, um, and folks should be able to access them, um, if they, if they choose, um, without, you know, plant plants shouldn’t put people in jail. Ask Joe Biden

25:01 Eric:

And Matt, is there, like, based off of your, i, I guess, experience and, and just understanding of the industry, like, like how do you feel about where like psychedelics is like today, you know, comparative to three years? Are you, are you happy with the progress? Do you think that, you know, we should be further along? Is it like, what are, what are some of the biggest barriers or is it just like time, um, that, that, you know, heals all things and, and will, uh, allow us to, you know, gain access to these medicines?

25:34 Matt Brockmeier:

Yeah, I mean, at, at this point, I don’t, I, I don’t think it’s a question of, if it’s a question of when we’re going to have like, mainstream access to one or more of these medicines, um, I, I guess, um, there’s a lot of education that needs to take place, um, in our communities and at state houses and in Congress so that people can kind of update their understanding of, um, these, these molecules, both in terms like the cultural context and like the biochemistry.

26:11 Matt Brockmeier:

So, um, uh, there are a lot of organizations working really hard. Um, American Psychedelic Practitioners Association, plant Medicine Coalition, the Psychedelic Bar Association, which I’m on the board of that are working to educate, um, folks about psychedelics because a lot of us, I speak for myself anyway, I grew up in the eighties and nineties in the Midwest in Cincinnati, Ohio.

26:35 Matt Brockmeier:

And I was a kid, I was a dare kid, and I was like, thoroughly convinced that L s D would put holes in your chromosomes and that like, um, you know, all these, this is your brain on drugs, and like, it’s just patently false. Like, that is, I don’t think it’s controversial in the least bit to say that we were like straight up, lied to by the authorities for a very long time. And now that there’s like another, a new generation, I think, or maybe it’s been two generations since the Nixon administration and the Controlled Substances Act, um, the, there, there’s, there’s been an evolution in, in our understanding of, um, what these medicines, these molecules do in our brains, and then how that translates to like people’s lives in, in, in their communities and in in society as a whole.

27:24 Matt Brockmeier:

And so, um, right now we’re, we’re at the very early stages, and so that involves a lot of education.

27:29 Matt Brockmeier:

And then after education comes legislation or regulation and then commercialization. And so, um, I think we’re, we’re trying to not put the cart before the horse. Um, there are a lot of people that are very excited about these medicines. A lot of them are excited because they worked for them and they wanna share these benefits with other people. Um, and we still, you know, exist in a capitalist, you know, uh, economic structure. And so everybody’s got a mortgage or a rent and everybody’s gotta pay for food and gas.

28:02 Matt Brockmeier:

So it’s like, uh, you know, people wanna make a living doing this. Um, but I think we need to, um, we need to be careful that we don’t, um, rush into things because there, this, uh, I I think that, um, reintroducing mainstream society to psychedelics, um, holds the is is the, is, um, the biggest opportunity that we have to kind of, if, if you think society’s maybe not going in the right direction, or if you think that people need help, I think that, I think that psychedelics are, are that opportunity and, and hold that promise, but if we just rush to commercialize them and treat them like, um, you know, this, take two, call me in the morning.

28:45 Matt Brockmeier:

This pill’s gonna fix your depression. It’s not that simple. There’s, um, the, that’s why we’re looking at psychedelic assisted therapy and not just psychedelics as like a prescription drug. It’s, it’s work. This is like, um, you know, in internal work that psychedelics can catalyze. Um, but they don’t, it’s not just a, a silver bullet.

29:05 Isaac:

That’s awesome now, and we appreciate the insight, Matt, and, uh, you know, last couple questions. Some more fun, fun personal ones. So, uh, you know, what’s at the, uh, top of the playlist these days? What’s getting you going in the morning or to the gym or whatever? Uh, you know, music keeps you, keeps you going.

29:24 Matt Brockmeier:

Um, Toro, imo, uh, I think it’s Tori Moi to, um, like kind of electronic, um, vibey music from, I don’t even know where the guy’s from. I think he’s from one of the Carolinas. But, um, listening to a lot of that, um, I’ve been on a lot of road trips lately. I drove from Boulder where I live to Austin for South by Southwest. Um, and, uh, so did, did a lot of road hike, road trips. It’s a hike, it’s 15 hours. And then after that I drove, uh, to San Francisco and then to Los Angeles where I am now.

29:57 Matt Brockmeier:

And, uh, so I’ve, I’ve been listening to a lot of music, but, uh, max Cooper is another, he’s kind of like an electronic guy. Um, but I’ll, I’ll, I’ll go everything from, um, folk music, everything, but K-pop, basically

30:12 Isaac:

<laugh>. Well, I feel like you just put in about 50 hours on the road, so I think your entire, I

30:18 Matt Brockmeier:

Really, I really did. And, um, it was, it was good. Good, good, good for thinking. Um, it was good to kind of get out and, and see, um, just see the country, you know. Um, and yeah, so that’s what I was gonna pull out my playlist, but I was gonna get distracted.

30:34 Isaac:

No, that’s awesome. Um, cool. And, you know, you continue adding to our, uh, roots to Risk book list. Um, you know, what’s one book that you’ve, you know, found very helpful, one that you would recommend for people to read or one that you’ve turned back to a bunch?

30:49 Matt Brockmeier:

Yeah, I can’t recommend this book enough. Um, it’s one that I like, if I feel like I’m starting to get sleepy when I’m reading it, I like put it down. Cause I really don’t wanna miss anything. It’s, uh, the Myth of Normal by Gabor Mate. Um, Gabor is a physician that’s worked in everything from like neonatal to palliative care end of life and oncology. And he’s really seen every angle of the medical system and, um, combined with his own experiences as the child of, um, Holocaust survivors and the kind of trauma associated with that.

31:24 Matt Brockmeier:

He’s, a lot of his research later in life, um, has, has, uh, looked at trauma and, um, this book really just ties, I think everything, it ties together threads from a lot of different disciplines, um, within medicine and, um, and looks at our culture. And, um, really the, the, the message of the book is like, if everyone is dealing with a mental health problem, it may not be an individual problem.

31:53 Matt:

It may be like societal or structural or institutional. And, um, just looking at, um, everything from the way we raise our kids to our education system, to family dynamics, to work-life balance, um, it’s just a really critical look at our modern culture. And, um, it’s not pointing fingers, it’s not trying to impugn any, any person or any discipline or any profession, but just takes a critical look at like, um, some of the things that we’re doing in our society just as a matter of habit or course, um, that that may not be, that they may be, um, resulting in like, um, large scale mental health issues.

32:36 Matt:

And, um, I think, uh, for, for the work that I’m doing, um, it informs a lot of my, um, interests and, and, uh, it’s just an incredible book. So there’s that one. Um, also all the, uh, the stoic books by Ryan Holiday, um, um, let me think. There’s like, courage is, courage is key. Stillness, stillness is key. Um, obstacle is the way, um, big fan of stoic philosophy, Marcus Aurelius meditations. Um, yeah,

33:07 Isaac:

No, that’s, uh, that’s awesome. Yeah, and I think, uh, probably both of those recommendations can provide a lot of, uh, help to people in the current state of the way the world is right now. So, um, definitely appreciate the recommendation. And, uh, last one, you know, what would be, uh, what would the last meal be if you had to pick one thing

33:26 Matt:

Brisket from Terry Black’s in Austin? It is, uh, I mean, there’s like brisket’s amazing, but then it is just, I can’t imagine a better, I can’t imagine a better bite of food than just fatty brisket from Terry Black’s after a, after a hot day on the river in Austin.

33:46 Isaac:

That’s, I I love a good

33:47 Eric:

Brisket. You said it too quick, you said like, in a good way. Yeah,

33:50 Matt:

Yeah.

33:50 Eric:

There’s no hesitation. No,

33:52 Matt:

It, no, I just, I would eat, I’m probably gonna get brisket later today if I can find something now that I, now that you mentioned,

33:57 Isaac:

I’ll give, uh, I’ll give my man Eric a in

33:59 Eric:

Los Angeles, you’re probably not gonna find as good as, uh, in Austin. Probably not.

34:03 Isaac:

No. I’ll, I’ll give my man Eric some credit. He, uh, he’s made me a pretty good brisket backing his old file cabinet smoker during Covid <laugh>.

34:12 Matt:

Good, man. That’s extreme. You gotta get up early to make good brisket.

34:16 Eric:

I know. I, I did one a few months ago and I, I woke up at like four in the morning and had to get it going and still just, yeah, it’s, it’s by far the most difficult thing.

34:30 Matt:

It’s a, it is a labor of love and my hat’s off to those old pit masters who’ve been doing it for like 30 years with like three ingredients and they just don’t mess up. So yeah, I love brisket. Um, I guess we’ll end on that. Love

34:40 Eric:

That. Good stuff. Well, we really appreciate your time, Matt. This has been really cool. Cause I think a lot of, a lot of the content and what we’ve been doing, you know, has been around, you know, cannabis, um, you know, just by and large, it’s, it’s been around longer from a commercial perspective, but it’s, it’s great to get, you know, experts like you on here to provide, you know, on the ground earned knowledge, uh, in the, in this psychedelic space. And, you know, I think it’s, uh, it’s a really unique time for the industry, right.

35:11 Eric:

You know, like, to your point, it’s not a matter of if it’s when, and I think, um, it’s, it’s definitely important though to be not super hasty with the, with the rollout because they are, you know, powerful medicines and, and wanna make sure that they’re used appropriately. And, uh, no, it’s, it’s super exciting. I mean, even when I talk, I have conversations with my parents, they’re like, what are you talking about? Um, and, uh, and it’s cool.

35:36 Matt:

Um, yeah, and I, I think about my, I think about my parents too. Like they’re, they’re lovely people, but they’re not likely to go sit in an ayahuasca circle with a shaman. Um, but they deserve to access these medicines just like anybody else. And so I think it’s important that we think about points of access and meet people where they are, and then go from there as far as like the, the work that you guys are doing with, you know, making, making sure that folks have adequate, like pg and l coverage and DNO and liability pnc. Um, and then also on like the health insurance side to make sure that, um, health insurers are starting to recognize that there’s a value proposition to covering psychedelics and to make sure that they get integrated into like the insurance, the, like the health insurance system.

36:21 Matt:

So, um, yeah, we’re, we’re still very early.

36:23 Matt:

Um, but I’m, it’s exciting to be working on, you know, working, working for clients that are helping patients and, um, at the, at the really like tip of the spear of, of this new industry, it’s, um, it’s, it’s the wild west right now, but I think give it a couple years and we’ll look back and be really proud of the work that we were doing. It seems like an uphill battle now, and it is. Um, but a lot of people in this space doing really good work for the right reasons. And I think we just need to, you know, keep our eyes on the prize based on what’s important, which is, um, you know, these medicines can heal people and I think all of us know someone, if it’s not us family member or friend that struggle with mental health, depression, substance use, and, um, these medicines, um, hold the key to like a brighter future for a lot of our, our friends and neighbors.

37:09 Isaac:

Absolutely. Well, we appreciate the time, Matt. Thanks you again, man. Another good one, provided a ton of good information on the psychedelic space.

37:21 Eric:

Yeah. Um, I would like the, I would say like I, you know, based off of just our work and this space, I knew about Oregon and, and Colorado and just, um, a little about newer markets on the horizon, but I didn’t know, you know, those other, those other markets that were looking to come online, uh, potentially and have bills that have either been, you know, passed through or rejected, you know, regardless, it’s, it’s positive momentum, you know what I mean? Yeah,

37:49 Isaac:

For sure. I mean, I think it makes sense, you know, one of our biggest jobs is keeping our insurance markets like even able to handle the, the current flow of legal states. So, um, you know, it’s good to get perspective like that of there’s a ton more on the horizon, so, uh, carriers should probably get ready for gonna flood a submission flow. But No, it’s good. It’s a cool time for the space. Um, and I think it sounds like there’s a lot of positives coming down the pipeline soon.

38:18 Eric:

Yeah, I mean it’s, uh, you know, based off of some clinical research that I’ve read and just like, you know, going to a Wonderland event and, and other events like the, the benefits are there and it, it’s interesting, it is from a very diverse, um, group of people, right? Like I mentioned, you have, you know, people that are, um, you know, indigenous people that have been using these medicines for, for centuries, and then you have, you know, scientists on the other side in labs, uh, working with like N ces and, um, it’s, uh, it’s a cool space and, and polarized, but you know, it’s, I think the objective is the same, you know, which is, uh, which is very cool.

39:03 Isaac:

A hundred percent. Yeah. The only thing I think I, uh, wasn’t a hundred percent on the same page that Matt said was the no wreck. I don’t think he’s walked into a bodega in New York lately where you can just, you know, tell ’em you want some chocolate. I

39:15 Eric:

Can’t speak to that personally. I can’t, I can’t speak, I can’t either,

39:18 Isaac:

But I, I know people who can, uh, provide firsthand accounts.

39:22 Eric:

<laugh>, I’ve heard this place, candy Cave in the West Village, but that’s, I haven’t, uh, I’ve never been there personally.

39:27 Isaac:

No, me either.

39:28 Eric:

<laugh>. Um, but cool man, no, another great one. And, uh, excited for the next guest. I think we should, uh, start to do a little bit more in this space, especially as it, you know, continues to proliferate in the US and you know, globally.

39:43 Isaac:

Absolutely. Yeah. Looking forward to the next one as well, and, uh, continue to grow on the psychedelic space.

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