Raising Capital to Help Support The Cannabis Industry with Matt Hawkins

In the next installment of the Roots to Risk podcast, Eric & Isaac Sit down with Matt Hawkins. Matt is the founder and managing principal of Entourage Effect Capital which is a venture capital firm focused specifically on investing in the legalized cannabis industry. 

Matt is known and respected in the cannabis industry as having the vision to become one of the first investors in the industry. He brings long standing relationships in the industry that compare to very few others in cannabis.

During this week’s conversation Matt talks about how he got into the cannabis industry, the current state of the market right now, the process of raising capital, regulatory and legislative obstacles and mentions all of the good work going on in the industry right now.  

Transcription

Raising Capital to Help Support The Cannabis Industry with Matt Hawkins

Eric:

This is the Roots to Risk Podcast hosted by Eric Schneider, alongside Isaac Bach. Roots To Risk brings you insights, the latest stories, and long form discussions about the cannabis industry. You’ll hear interviews with industry leaders and their perspective on current and future trends, how they’ve built success and what challenges they have faced. Our goal is to facilitate candid conversations and provide informative content for the cannabis community at large. Let’s go. What’s going on, everybody? How we doing?

Eric:

This is, uh, episode four of The Roots to Risk podcast. Super excited to, uh, to have our next guest on deck. Matt Hawkins from Entourage Effect Capital, um, industry veteran. Uh, been around since, you know, 2012 when, when Colorado went wreck. Uh, super excited to get his point of view on, on where the market is and trends that he’s seeing. Um, you know, Isaac, I, I know we’ve met Matt at, uh, a few Trailblazers events. Awesome guy.

Eric:

Really, uh, direct to the Point kind of no bs, which, which I love.

Isaac

I I love it. It’s, uh, kind of similar to how I am, so I can definitely appreciate it. But, um, no, I think he’s gonna give some very, you know, good insight, especially just given, you know, haage effects, you know, history and you know, what they’ve done in the industry. Ara, I think he’ll give a great insight on how investors think about things right now, and you know, what they’re doing on their end.

Eric:

Yeah, no, absolutely. And, and just a little bit more about Matt before we bring him on, uh, you know, he’s the founder managing principal of Entourage Effect Capital, formerly known as Cresco Capital Partners, a venture capital firm focused specifically on investing in the legalized cannabis industry. Since 2014, the firm has made close to 70 investments out of three funds, co-investment, vehicles, and special purpose entities. Matt is known and respected in the cannabis industry as having the vision to become one of the first investors in the industry.

Eric:

He brings longstanding relationships in the industry that compare to very few others in the cannabis space. He’s the chairman of the Board of Directors of Statehouse Holdings and a board member of Thunderstorm. He has helped orchestrate numerous exits for firms investments. He has spoken on countless industry panels and has appeared on C N B C, Fox News Cheddar, Yahoo Finance, Bloomberg, among others, discussing the industry, and next on Deck, the Roots to Risk podcast. To add to that, I, I think, I think the others were a little above our audience, but I, I, nonetheless, I’m excited to have ’em on.

Isaac

We’ll see. We’re four episodes in. Who knows. We might jump to the top of that list long term. You, you never know,

Eric:

Never know. Let’s bring them in ib. All. Awesome. Well, appreciate you, uh, you joining us here today, Matt. This is, uh, the Route to Risk podcast, episode four, featuring Entourage Effect Capital, and the founder and managing principal, Matt Hawkins. Super excited to have you on here today, Matt, and I appreciate you taking the time.

Matt

You bet. I appreciate y’all having me. Of course.

Eric:

Absolutely. And, uh, you know, just to kick things off, could you just provide, you know, viewers as a, a quick overview of, you know, your background, what you’re working on today, and, um, we’ll, we’ll dive into the specifics in a little bit more detail.

Matt

Sure. Um, so Entourage Effect Capital has been investing in the cannabis industry since 2014, uh, out of three funds and probably close to 20 different special purpose entities for, uh, one-off investments. Um, overall, we’ve made close to 65, 70 investments in that period of time. Uh, we just closed our third fund now. We’re just busy deploying that capital. Um, you know, it’s a, it’s a tricky time in the industry.

Matt

I mean, it’s good for investors that have money and that valuations are low, but it’s also, you know, there’s a lot of uncertainty on where, where the industry’s going. Um, there’s a huge disconnect with, um, the lack of capital and the, um, uh, the regulatory uncertainty, uh, that’s both present now and going forward. And it’s, uh, so it, it complicates things, but that also presents a lot of opportunity.

Eric:

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it’s interesting because when we always talk about capital raise, it’s focused on, you know, operators raising capital, but obviously you as the fund to deploy capital, you also yourself have to, to raise capital, right. So, you know, how, how has that been? Congratulations on closing a third fund. That’s awesome to hear, and, and super exciting. Um, you know, what’s that process like for you as a, an investor trying to pay capital to other investors?

Matt

Well, before you thank me too much, you know, we didn’t hit our target and it’s, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re affected by this, just like everybody else is in cannabis. I mean, we’re, you know, we’re not immune to it. Even with the track record that we have, which is a good one. Um, people have left the industry both from an investor’s standpoint and from, you know, for operators. I mean, just as we were getting really good talent coming in to operate companies, you’ve got quite a few, you know, senior executives that are just saying, to hell with this, I’m gonna go back to tr traditional bricks and mortar, or whatever else. Um, so that’s been challenging and it’s, uh, and, and, you know, and, and the fact that, and I, and I take pride in the fact that, um, and I feel responsible, the fact that, you know, if we’re not able to raise the amount of money we need to raise, then we’re not supporting the industry the way we need to support ’em.

Matt

So it’s a, it’s a tough one, and it’s, uh, but we gotta just keep after it and be smart the way we put her to capital. And, um, but unfortunately, the way, you know, some of these states have set up their programs. It’s, you know, it’s gonna be the haves and have nots just what they were trying to avoid, but guess what? They brought it upon themselves.

Isaac

Yeah. With, with that in mind. Absolutely. Have you, uh, have you changed your investment thesis at all over the last few years to kind of, you know, combat some of the issues we’re running into, or the story you’re telling? The Absolutely. The LPs Uping. Yeah. Uh,

Matt

Yeah, we, we, fund two was very California centric. I mean, California is the largest cannabis market in the world, but we’re, we’re not gonna put another dime of new investment capital. We’re gonna continue to support our investments that are in Ca California, but we won’t make another new investment in California until they clean, clean up their mess there. And, um, you know, unfortunately, they think that, um, having some type of, you know, false hope that they can, um, you know, cross state lines, uh, with their product, you know, that that’s just the federal government’s not gonna allow that.

Matt

So once again, it’s California just making a mess of their own state and the fact that it’s too hard to do business there, and until they change their ways, it’s gonna be difficult. And unfortunately, new York’s following a similar pattern right now.

Eric:

There’s, uh, there’s no doubt Isaac and I are, you know, we’re, we’re in New York City right now on, on 25th and Park, and what’s really interesting is a lot, like in New York, just seeing it, a lot of it has been like the bodegas that have, you know, you could buy a Gatorade, a bag of chips, and a little cannabis. Now there’s stores branded like popping up, you know? Um, and yeah. And,

Matt

Uh, for a $250 fine, they’ll get a slap on their wrist. Yeah.

Eric:

There’s, there’s a lot around us where we both live in Chelsea, and it just, it just like, like on the news, it says, you know, we’re gonna start cracking down and we’re gonna do this. And provi, I just haven’t seen like actually tangible, haven’t seen any really,

Matt

Well, they can’t do it legislatively. It’s a, I mean, they, they, there’s only so much they can do. And, and now they’re trying to penalize the landlords who really have no idea what their, these operators are getting into. Why is it the landlord’s fault? Not the ones that are actually doing it themselves. I mean, they’re talking, the reason is, is that because they can go after the landlord for $50,000 penalties, but they’re legally unable to do what they’re supposed to do. It’s just shut people down and, and find the hell out of ’em for, for breaking the law. It’s just, it’s, it’s absolutely ridiculous.

Matt

And so you’ve got law abiding citizens that have, that have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a legal license in the state of New York that before they’re even open, they have to compete against the thousands of dispensaries that are opened up illegally in the streets of Manhattan. I mean, it’s completely, it. I mean, it’s bullshit.

Eric:

Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, and, and the Black Mar, I mean, the legacy market has been in New York for, for decades, right? So it’s not something that’s new, it’s just now it has a retail front to it and accessibility has just increased.

Matt

Yeah. It’s, it, look, I mean, for all the reasons that, that we need to be mindful of the legacy market, it, there’s situations like this that makes it hard for me to do that because they, they’re just breaking the law at this point, and it’s, and it’s not fair to the ones that are doing it the right way. And until legislators in the states that are enabling this, get it right, it’s gonna, it’s, I mean, no one’s gonna invest any money in these states. We’re not gonna invest in New York.

Matt

We’re gonna go to Missouri, we’re gonna go to Maryland, we’re gonna go to, you know, some of the other states where there, where there’s limited licenses and there’s partner true partnerships with the, uh, in the, uh, uh, enforcement and the, um, regulatory agencies that are set up to work with you, not not to fight. Yeah. Alright, let’s, maybe we talk with some fun stuff now,

Eric:

Let’s go fun. No, but it’s important, right? I think it’s, I, I think it’s important for, you know, like Isaac and I on the, on the ground seeing it on a daily basis. And, you know, these are just unfortunately, you know, circumstances that we’re dealing with in the industry. Speaking of that, like how did you get into the, the cannabis space and, you know, when did you start, you know, investing through entourage effect? Um, you know, I feel like everybody has a pretty unique story because of how Nas

Matt

Industry is. Yeah. Mine’s, yeah, mine’s as unique as anybody’s. I mean, I, I’ve been, you know, in private equity my whole career. Um, I had an exit of a, uh, multi-family acquisition platform in 2013, 14. And one of the things I had done in the downturn, or the great recession was, uh, uh, private lending on real estate deals. And so typically they were broken real estate deals, but these were, you know, in some cases hard money loans. But I had partnered with a guy back then and kind of turned that deal spigot back on when I had this exit just to kind of try to deploy some capital.

Matt

And, uh, he and I started seeing some deals in Denver with warehouse owners that were looking to refinance their mortgages out of commercial debt to get into private debt, which would then give them the ability to lease their facilities to marijuana growers.

Matt

Cuz obviously in 2012 is when Cal, uh, Colorado legalized. And so I didn’t, I didn’t know much about the space other than using it from time to time. And, um, but I realized that after making a couple of loans that the, the yields would likely dry up on real estate. Now they’ve kind of come up and down over the years since then, but I knew one thing that would not be in existence and I’d have a first move advantage is, is in the actual investing in the operating companies themselves and the legalized industry.

Matt

And so that’s what I decided to do. And I just raised a little bit of money and we closed fund one back in 2016, 17. Um, and that’s been a tremendous success cuz we were at the right place at the right time and, um, you know, fund two’s still too early to really put a, because that, that we closed that fund in, you know, late 2019. Um, but that was also a, a pretty high point of the market. So we’ve, you know, we’ve had to work hard to keep our positions and reduce our cost basis and we’ve done a pretty good job with that.

Matt

But, and then we raised fund three in a, in a market where, you know, everything was in the shitter and so the, yeah, the, the pricing is way down and it’s been, you know, it’s been good for us so far.

Eric:

No, that’s, that’s super exciting. And, um, I gu I guess out of like fund three, how much, you know, for you, is it focused on existing portfolio versus new new market?

Matt

Yeah, good, good question. We, we don’t, we don’t cross pollinate our funds, so everything we do in Fund three Isely different than fund two and Fund one. Um, if there’s ever any crossover, it’s because there was an acquisition or, you know, something like that. But, but these are all new investments and so it’s a very healthy mix of a couple of, uh, uh, single state operators that have grown to be, you know, smaller multi-state operators. Uh, a lot of ancillary plays. Yeah.

Matt

Uh, doma, financial Hound Labs, I mean, two Hound Labs is the preeminent, uh, uh, breathalyzer, uh, on the market. That’s actually, they’re just now starting to become on the market, but they can test what your THC content is that particular moment in time. You know, DOMA Financial is the number one payment processor and point of sale, uh, company in the cannabis industry. Um, and then, you know, we’re also in, uh, in Filo and, and so it’s a, you know, the the compliance software.

Matt

So we’re, you know, like I said, a healthy, uh, mix of plant touching and non plant touching.

Eric:

Yeah, we actually, no, I mean we actually just built a partnership with dma cuz I, I think what they’re doing in the space is, is tremendous in, in being, uh, an ancillary provider to the cannabis space. Um, no. And, and I guess like in fund three, is it, what are, what are things like that you’re looking at right now as in terms of like attractive investments? What are you most excited about, you know, moving forward for, for 2023 and, and into 2024?

Matt

Um, yeah, probably what I’ve already touched upon is the, uh, you know, focusing on, uh, limited licensed states. Um, we, we, you know, we were in Curio Wellness and also in organic remedies, which was in Missouri. Uh, so both have had and, and, uh, uh, curios in Maryland. So both those states have gone rec since we’ve been involved, which were great, great, uh, boosts for us. Um, so continue to focus on states where it’s, where it’s, you know, burgeoning like that.

Matt

Uh, but then also some ancillary plays that are, that are, that are, that are not startups, but are at the point where they need that rocket fuel to take the next step. Because we really want to help build scale with these companies in advance of what we think will be at least something legislatively that could happen. Like during our whole period of fund three, which is a, you know, fund private equity funds are typically five to seven year holds. And so if you think about it, our final closing was in January, so I feel pretty certain that in five years, you know, something’s going to be different than what it is now.

Matt

<laugh>, uh, I just, I don’t know what it is, but I feel like it’ll be something <laugh> notwithstanding the, the bullshit we went through at the end of last year with, uh, getting teased like we were.

Isaac

Yeah. Is there anything on the ancillary side that’s, you know, more attractive to you than anything else? Or are you guys pretty agnostic on that side of things right now?

Matt

Pretty agnostic. I mean, if you look at the ones we’ve done, I mean compliance software, you know, payment solutions, uh, providers, uh, uh, then the, you know, breathalyzer, I mean, those are pretty cross the board investments. So I think it’ll show you how agnostic we are. But again, they need to be either, if they’re not market leaders already, they need to have something that would give them that edge. Like how labs, for example, there’s just nobody else anywhere close to the technology they had and have got, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in, in, uh, in orders that they’re looking to, to fulfill as they start, uh, generating revenue.

Eric:

And, and Matt, who, who are some of your, your peers in, uh, maybe a, it’s an operator, maybe it’s another investor that, you know, you see is, is doing some great things in the space and, uh, maybe you bounce ideas off of like, you know, you’re, you’re kind of immediate circle of, you know, trusted individuals.

Matt

There’s a lot, I mean, we, you know, we’re, we’re friendly with, uh, whole host of, you know, smart folks in the industry when there’s a lot of ’em. Um, you know, we’re, we, we work closely with Viridian on a lot of the stuff that they, uh, put out and are doing. Um, we’re very close with the guys at, at Good Day Farms. Uh, we look to co-invest a lot with them and we, um, um, and, and do and get more strategic with them as we go forward. Um, you know, but there’s also all the old line, uh, funds that have been around and we always, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re, whether we, whether we all like it or not, it’s a small group of, of yeah.

Matt

Of, uh, funds that have been supporting this industry. And we typically cross pollinate each other on cap tables. So, um, a lot of work there with one another, but it’s, uh, you know, we don’t really, you know, we don’t exclude anybody, but we’re also very, um, you know, internalized with how we go about our business.

Isaac

Are there any, um, operators who, when you guys, you know, invest in a company you kind of point to and say, you know, we wanna build this company in this way or advise them, you know, we kind of follow the same growth path that a certain operator has done in the past, or, um, you guys just kinda rely on your experience working with these companies?

Matt

It’s probably a healthy mix of both. I mean, we, I mean, our job is to find the best operators we can to partner with. Um, and in, you know, lot of cases we’ve been successful with that. In a lot of cases we’ve, you know, been on the wrong horses. Um, uh, Michael Bronnen with, with Curio is one of the best, and we, you know, point to him a lot to just the way, uh, he does things. We, we, we love the management team and Hound Labs. We, we love the management team at doma. Um, so it’s just a, you know, we really try to, if we do anything other than just partner with the best, we’ll say, you know, here’s an example of who those are and you can just look at our portfolio to see that’s, especially in fund three where there’s some really, really attractive operators.

Eric:

How much, how much of, uh, fund three have you already deployed ver like, percentage wise versus, uh, still, still ready?

Matt

Fair amount. I mean, we’ve, you know, we’ve made, uh, 10 investments already outta fund three, so, wow. Um, yeah, I suspect we’ll have room for another two to three more, uh, uh, new investments. And then, you know, we reserve a lot of capital for follow-ons with existing investors. So we’re, especially having gone, we’ve gone through in the past in this industry, there’s, you never have you, the money you think you need is, is, I’ve been saying recently that it’s almost like five x what you think you need, so you better have a lot of money set aside, or you better hope your investors have that money set aside.

Eric:

No, that makes, makes complete sense. Um, Isaac, do you want to, uh, to kick it off and, and, uh, go through the next segment?

Isaac

Yeah, I actually think, Matt, I kind of plug into a a great kind of next question which we, we’ve asked everyone is, um, you know, not necessarily a screw up or anything, but has there been one situation that has been the greatest learning experience for you and, you know, kind of helped prepare, propelled you and, um, e e c forward? Um, it sounds like, you know, keeping cash on hand is definitely one of ’em, but is there anything, you know, else that sticks out? Yeah, that’s,

Matt

That’s a big one. Um, you know, look, we, I, I mean I’m, it’s no secret. We’ve, you know, we were instrumental in the, uh, merger of Harborside Loud Pack, sublime and Urban Leaf, and while we, we, we absolutely know that it was the right thing to do because there’s a chance that none of those companies survive on their own. But now that they’re together, uh, they have a hell of a lot better chance of not only succeeding, but also really succeeding. But there’s a lot of bumps across, you know, along the way.

Matt

And not to mention the fact that the public markets are just in shambles. And so what we didn’t anticipate was having a lower stock price after we made the company almost, you know, three x in size because it doesn’t make any sense. Uh, but you know, what’s one of the things, it’s another thing, you know, lesson learned, you can’t, you can’t ever explain the public markets. You can’t control it, um, especially on, you know, thinly traded, you know, low volume type situations.

Matt

And until we get the chance to up list, um, and until we deal with Section two 80 E, it’s gonna be hard. Um, but luckily, uh, St. State House has scale and has the ability to weather storms unlike some of the other companies in California that just don’t and can’t. Yeah. And so it’s, uh, and we will be the beneficiaries of that, but we gotta, you know, scratch and claw and tell them

Isaac

No, for sure. And I’ve, I’ve always found it very interesting that you, you look at companies, uh, stock prices and their market caps versus what they have in revenues and c on hand, and they, it doesn’t exactly make sense in traditional finance, but

Matt

No, I mean, there’s, I mean, companies, some, some cases, their stock, their market cap is less than the amount of cash they have in their balance sheet. Doesn’t make any sense. No.

Eric:

Yeah, we were talking to Troy from, uh, you know, the parent company the other day, and their market cap was 25 million. I think he said they have close to a hundred million on their balance sheet in cash.

Matt

Yeah. It’s crazy.

Isaac

Um, but Cool. Well, a couple quick, quick hitters just, uh, you know, more kind of personal question. So what’s, uh, what’s on the Spotify Apple Music playlist these days? What’s, uh, what’s trending in Matt Hawkins playlist? <laugh> <laugh>,

Matt

Uh, lot of, uh, lot of seventies and eighties. I’ve listened to some nineties lately, like I’ve been working out to, uh, on Pandora, gin Blossoms Radio

Isaac

<laugh>. I love it.

Matt

Jim Blossoms. Uh, it’s got a lot of good, good, uh, late nineties stuff on there. Um, a lot of vintage counting crows, but I’m a big classic country guy too. I mean, I live in Dallas, so you know, Willie Nelson, George Jones, uh, Steve Warner, Earl Thomas Conley, a lot of, you know, old school country people like that. Oh no. But, uh, seems like they’re li listening to music a lot. And, uh, so that’s, that’s kind of the, that’s the, that’s the peak inside there.

Matt

Oh,

Eric:

Were you, uh, were you born and raised in Texas?

Matt

Yep. Yep. Spend a lot of time in Fort Lauderdale now cuz our office is here. And, uh, the woman I date lives in Fort Lauderdale, so even though I’ve got a lot of family in Dallas, my, my daughter’s a senior in college, so I’m, you know, free to Rome and, uh, and it’s great that my, you know, my whole team is in Fort Lauderdale and the woman that I spend time with too, so it’s awesome,

Isaac

Amazing worst places to spend time in Fort Lauderdale too. <laugh>

Matt

Especially this time of year. Yeah.

Isaac

Um, cool. Well, last one is, uh, you know, do you have a, a book you always kind of turn back to or an all-time recommendation from a book perspective that you would give to listeners? Uh,

Matt

You know, it’s funny, I I I I’m in a rut now where I haven’t been reading as much as I’d like to because my mind wanders so much with just everything that’s going on. I’m, I’m a very, I mean, I’m a d d a bit that way, but, um, <laugh>, some of the things that I have read in the past that have, that have stayed with me are, um, a couple of Harvey McKay’s books, um, the Big Envelope Guy, but then there’s also one that’s, uh, a book called Uncommon Friends, which I read a long time ago, but it’s, see if I can get this right.

Matt

It was Henry Ford, Harvey Firestone, Thomas Edison, and then this No Name and this Noname guy wrote the book and he was good friends with these other three legends. And he just tells the story of kind of just how, you know, look, even though I was just this normal guy, he was just friends with these three pioneers. And so it’s, uh, you know, it kind of life lesson type thing from

Isaac

Something. That’s really cool. Love that. Yeah, that’s, that’s, um, that’s a cool book. I, well add that to the list. I think, uh, you know, the guests we’ve had on have provided a pretty solid reading list, which should probably start reading myself a bit, a little bit <laugh>. Um, but Awesome though. Appreciate that. Matt, you have anything?

Matt

I have been, but, but I’ve also, but one thing I have been doing a lot of is, um, you know, a lot of Ted talks, a lot of, uh, stuff that, you know, through, you know, short 20 minute podcasts that are, you know, from, you know, high level, high thinkers that are, you know, that, that are dealing with either have dealt with or dealing with, you know, industries in tumult or just have, you know, things they’ve, they’ve learned in the past.

Matt

And then, um, try to steer away from a lot of political stuff. Every now and then I’ll listen to a Joe Roman <laugh>, but, uh, depends on who he’s, who he’s got on. Uh, well,

Isaac

He, Helen Long have you, anyone

Matt

That’s kinda where I, that’s he’ll, he’ll,

Isaac

He’ll interview anyone. It’s crazy. The spread of guests he has on his podcast.

Matt

It’s amazing. Yeah, and it’s, it really is. I mean, it’s, it’s the, the breadth of how deep he and how far and wide he goes. I mean, it’s, it’s pretty amazing.

Eric:

Awesome. Well, Matt, really, really appreciate you taking the time here. And this has been, you know, super insightful. Um, excited to see what’s on the horizon for Entourage Effect, especially with fund three coming online and, and additional, uh, additional powder to deploy into the market.

Matt

Awesome, guys. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Thanks,

Eric:

Matt. Yeah, absolutely excited to see it. Uh, next trailblazers, or I’m sure I’ll, we’ll see you in person on the circuit.

Matt

Trailblazers, uh, Benzinga and, uh, MJ Impact are my upcomings.

Eric:

Love it.

Matt

All right, see

Isaac

Y’all. Thanks

Eric:

Matt. We’ll see you. Awesome conversation, Isaac. I think, you know, a as we mentioned on the onset, you know, very direct to the point, um, and, and really providing a lot of great insight into what’s kind of going on in the industry. And it’s funny, at one point, you know, during when we were talking, he is like, let’s try to get away from, you know, the negativity, right? And let’s look forward to, um, you know, what’s exciting on the horizon for them, obviously, you know, raising fund three. That’s, that’s awesome. You know, you and I have seen, it’s been really, really challenging to raise any sort of capital in this space right now.

Eric:

Um, and, uh, just really, really appreciated his point of view.

Isaac

No, for sure. And I think what’s cool is getting the insight on how, um, nimble cannabis investors kind of have to be, you know, they’ve, uh, changed their investments thesis, kind of not on the fly, but they’ve changed it, you know, quite a bit. What code say isn’t, you know, always the case. And, um, the fact that they’re kind of taking a, a widespread approach to a lot of the ancillary businesses as long as they’re an industry leader, um, or disruptor, I think is, uh, is good for the long term for the industry. Find the people who are gonna be doing the most for it long term. It’ll be great.

Eric:

Couldn’t agree more. And, and it’s interesting too, just how do you balance investing versus, like you mentioned, you know, saving capital for follow on and, um, no, I mean obviously entourage Effect I is a mainstay in the industry and excited to see where, where they deploy capital in the, the 20 23, 20 24 year.

Isaac

Absolutely. Yeah. Love loved his, uh, his music and book recommendations though. That was, uh, that was great to see, see a little bit inside the, uh, you know, the normal interaction, which is great.

Eric:

Yeah, I think it’s great. I think it’s, you know, a way to see, you know, we’re, we’re all human beings. We all listen to music, we all read books, right? I think it’s, I think it’s cool to get the lens of, you know, people’s personal behaviors as well. You know, we, we see them a lot of times just on the professional side, so love that.

Isaac

Hundred percent.